“Gays Are Nazis”: A Response From Bryan Fischer – part 2

If you haven’t read my last post, please do so before reading this.

My Reply To Fischer’s Response:
Mr. Fischer, thank you for taking the time to respond to explain and elaborate on your initial statement.

As a follower of Christ, I share the same concerns that you do. I don’t want to be shut up in the four walls of the church. Have you considered that they are being so oppressive and intolerant in response to the oppressiveness and intolerance they feel coming from conservatives?

Yet, as a Christian, my primary concern is the advancement of the gospel. Seeing lives changed because of the grace and mercy of God. Living out that grace and mercy by showing it to those who some would deem “enemies of the church”, just as God showed it to me when I was one of His enemies (Rom. 5:8).

The concern that I have is not your intent, it is your method. Above that, it’s how your methods are perceived, and how that perception is cast upon the body of Christ as a whole.
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OUR [AFA’s] MISSION
The mission of the American Family Association is to inform, equip, and activate individuals to strengthen the moral foundations of American culture, and give aid to the church here and abroad in its task of fulfilling the Great Commission.

ACTION STATEMENT
The American Family Association acts to:

(1) restrain evil by exposing the works of darkness;
(2) promote virtue by upholding in culture that which is right, true and good according to Scripture;
(3) convince individuals of sin and challenge them to seek Christ’s grace and forgiveness;
(4) motivate people to take a stand on cultural and moral issues at the local, state and national levels; and
(5) encourage Christians to bear witness to the love of Jesus Christ as they live their lives before the world

AFA STATEMENT OF FAITH
1. We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.
2. We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.
4. We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
5. We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
6. We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
7. We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
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I am 100% behind the above section from the AFA website. What concerns me is that this statement of faith is the same as ANY church’s core statement of faith. So, when someone goes to see what the AFA is all about, they see this. Then they hear a comparison of ANY group of people to the Nazis, they assume that anyone who shares these core doctrinal beliefs think the same thing.

If your original intent was to say that homosexuals are trying to suppress the church like the Nazis did, you could have very easily and just as strongly said so without using the term “Nazi”. Instead, you chose to compare a group of people to one of the most violent hate groups most people can think of. This language, this thought process, and this behavior is divisive, it does not show the love of Christ, and serves to push people AWAY from the gospel instead of drawing them toward the only Savior who can turn the hearts of men like channels of water (Proverbs 21:1).

This cannot be about moral conservativism. If we try to push a conservative agenda in this manner, it will fail every time. Preach the gospel. Preach that we were all dead in our sins, and it is by the grace of God alone that we were made alive and have faith in Him, and through that faith and relationship have our minds and hearts renewed with an affection for and a desire to obey Him (Ephesians 2:1-10).

If we merely try to push our values on other people, and do not truly show them the gospel, then we are no better than the Pharisees. That loses its meaning in most of the Christian world, so let me clarify the emphasis: Jesus called them a “brood of vipers” (Matt. 12:34, 23:33), to signify that those who were supposed to lead people to life were, in fact, leading them to death. And that this occurs so subtly, because it’s in the name of “good” or “God”, that many people don’t even know it’s happening. He told them that they had made what was to be a “house of prayer for all peoples” (Isaiah 56:7) into a “den of thieves” (Mark 11:15) because they made it to where only the Jews could come and worship. He also said that it would be better for a person to be drowned than to lead people astray (Luke 17:1-2).

Belief in the gospel both requires and produces humility, because we recognize that were it not for the grace of God, we would stand condemned with those whose actions we would desire to condemn. Belief in the gospel means that we, politically and spiritually, confess Christ as Lord and King, and submit to and embrace His sovereign control over all things. Yes, we should absolutely use our right to vote (which is under God’s control and is His gift toward us) to create or maintain an environment where we can freely advance the gospel. But if this government is overturned tomorrow and we come under communist rule and are completely censored, and there is true persecution, then we still advance the gospel in love, grace, humility, and boldness. Just as the gospel and the church is exploding today in China (and all over the world) while still under persecution.

As Christians, we must love people and allow God to change their hearts in HIS timing, and pray for strength to endure the frustrations of being patient.

Mr. Fischer, if you still feel it best to make such comparisons about homosexuals, Muslims, or any other community of people, that is, by God’s grace, your right to do so. I would ask two things though: 1) How does that “bear witness to the love of Jesus Christ” toward His enemies? 2) How does this conform to Titus 3:2 when we are commanded to “speak evil of no one”?

My sincere hope and prayer for you, as well as for those who struggle and embrace homosexuality (or any other sin), is that you would come to know the truly life changing grace of God in the gospel, and that it would be evidenced in your life and words through loving and humble speech and actions.

I am by no means perfect, and don’t pretend to be. The reason I am writing this is because I love Jesus and believe the Bible to be authoritative. The heart behind this is very much one which desires you to truly experience and express the gospel and love of God, so I write this, appealing of the authority of Scripture, to address your incorrect and unloving actions in the hopes that you would come to live out the gospel, or as Paul states in Titus 1:3 “…rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith…”

If you still think this method is the best course of action, please (I’m literally begging here) make it clear that you do not speak for the body of Christ. I have done my best to express my thoughts and feelings in a manner which is both loving and edifying, and if I have failed to do so effectively, then I deeply apologize in not being seasoned enough to be both accurate and loving at the same time.
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Closing Clarifications [on the blog only]:
I know that was a lot, so let me briefly summarize:
1) I fall under the authority of Scripture, as any Christian does.
2) Scripture does indeed condemn as sin any sexual act which takes place outside of heterosexual marriage.
3) Scripture equally condemns as sin any act which expresses hate, or leads people away from Christ, even if it’s done in the name of “good” or “God”.
4) The grace, mercy, and atoning sacrifice of Jesus is enough to provide redemption and restoration for EITHER of the above mentioned sins.
5) My intent in addressing this with Mr. Fischer was in the hope that he would see the grace that has been applied to his life (if he is indeed a follower of Christ), and out of gospel-inspired humility show that same grace toward those who he would consider his enemies.
6) Additionally, my intent was to ask him that if he does not confess Christ as Lord, that he would do so openly, as to not categorize himself in the same group as those who do confess Christ as Lord and are trying to show love to the enemies of God, as we all were prior to God’s sovereign moving in our hearts and minds.

In the interest of allowing conversation and freedom for people to express their opinions, I have left comments on this post open. Comments are moderated, and any that are not civil or appear hateful will not be approved.

6 responses to ““Gays Are Nazis”: A Response From Bryan Fischer – part 2

  1. Pingback: “Gays Are Nazis”: A Response From Bryan Fischer | TransformingWords

  2. Kudos don…

  3. Great response Don, I especially agree with this: “If your original intent was to say that homosexuals are trying to suppress the church like the Nazis did, you could have very easily and just as strongly said so without using the term ‘Nazi'”

    Although I agree with Fischer’s overall point (it’s quite obvious that the homosexual agenda it seeking to oppress freedom of speech and freedom of religion. You can’t get around that), comparing them with the Nazi’s is stupid and hateful. They aren’t trying to murder Christians, to put us in a camp and force us out of society. They are trying to shut us up through culture and the legal system.

    Honestly, when I heard the first half of the video you linked to I didn’t disagree with him, but the second half was nothing but hate speech and fear-mongering. It’s disgusting and not Christ centered.

  4. You guys should check out SoulForce: https://www.facebook.com/SoulforceOrganization?sk=info

    “Soulforce is determined to help end oppression against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people; determined to help change the minds and hearts of religious and political leaders whose words and influence lead (directly and indirectly) to that oppression; and determined to be guided in our every action by the principles of relentless nonviolent resistance as lived and taught by M.K. Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.. Soulforce ultimately seeks to challenge systems of injustice, not people. We are seeking a community wherein all can share health, safety, and liberty. One day we want to be in community with those in which we currently find ourselves divided. In the process of bringing hope and healing to our society, we find redirection and renewal for ourselves.

    Soulforce is a non-profit organization whose administrative office is located in Austin, Texas, under the leadership of Jeff Lutes, Executive Director. Our co-founder’s, the Rev. Dr. Mel White and his partner, Gary Nixon, live in Lynchburg, Virginia, where Gary runs the business office. Soulforce operates as a network of staff and volunteers committed to teaching and applying the principles of nonviolence to end discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity.”

    Practicing Christians predominantly make up the group, I believe, at least, according to my gender and human rights professor who is Episcopalian and got involved when SoulForce was initially created.

    There is no part of me that accepts homosexuality as a sin. I know far more “sinful” things than two people of the same sex being in love with each other/being attracted to each other.

    Homosexuality is not a choice, but homophobia and bigotry is.

    Your time is better spent befriending LGBT people, mentoring the kids who want to kill themselves because of who they are — NOT by “praying the gay away” but by loving them unconditionally. Loving them unconditionally also means supporting their fair share to the civil rights we all enjoy, whether that personally makes you feel uncomfortable or not.

    What kills me is that straight couples have the luxury and liberty to enjoy sex the same way a gay couples would, and they’re still allowed to marry, whereas LGBT cannot. Last I checked, amongst Christian friends and mentors, Jesus never spoke out against homosexuality. Given the chance that I’m wrong, at least you can say that you erred on the side of love. I do not believe that there are different definitions of love. Love is love. Either you love or you don’t. It’s quite simple.

    It goes without saying that I applaud you, Don, for speaking up against Fischer. However, the mentality from within has not really changed. You still view homosexuality as a sin. You, from what I understand, would vote against marriage equality. That, to me, is not really an act of love :/

    Because of this, many young people who grew up Christian and realized they were gay are turning away from God and religion.

    I volunteered for the Dallas Holocaust Museum. I focused on bullying, specifically anti-gay bullying, since gay people were the first victims of the Holocaust and continue to be persecuted to this day.

    We aren’t strict enough on those who gay bash. The rise in gay teen suicides is unacceptable and despicable. You should rent this movie called “For the Bible Tells me So”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C52N7zdkn98

    Also, I found this gem of a sermon awhile back: http://lakeweedatarrowhead.net/kjsermon.htm

    • Jessica, there are a couple things that we differ on: 1) The meaning of “love”, and 2) The nature of authority.

      As a Christian, I believe that ultimate authority is God’s alone, and He communicates both His love and His authority in Scripture. Therefore, Scripture is absolutely authoritative. If the Bible calls homosexuality a sin, then it is, regardless of what I feel or think about it, because it is authoritative. If the Bible says that sex of any kind outside of marriage is a sin, then it is. I’m not aware of any study that has proven homosexuality to be genetic, which would mean people would then not have a choice in to whom they are attracted, but even if it is, the Bible still says that it’s a sin, and as such, we are commanded to abstain from that action, whether it’s genetic or otherwise. To be fair, I don’t know whether it’s genetic that men want to sleep with every beautiful woman they see, but whether it’s genetic, spiritual, psychological, or a combination thereof, there is something that drives me to want to do this, and I am commanded to suppress those desires and wait until I’m married, as are all Christians, as is God’s plan to provide ultimate joy for all people. The determination of what is and is not sin isn’t for us to define, it is for God to define, and He has done so very clearly in the Bible.

      When it comes to love, as I said before, it isn’t tolerance. Tolerance allows someone to continue to do something we believe is harming them and will harm them later and say nothing. This is not loving. That is politically correct nonsense to avoid getting called out for taking a stand and risking stepping on people’s toes. One of my former mentors said that “A real friend is someone who is willing to risk friendship to be a friend.” In essence, they aren’t afraid to confront their friends on issues that may cause that person to stop speaking to them. Tolerance would let the alcoholic continue damaging his life and the lives of those around him; love would not, love would confront him for his own good.

      Concerning your quote “pray the gay away”…that is indeed ridiculous. As Christians, we should be praying that those who do not know Christ as Lord, Savior, and Treasure would come to know Him as such. Our first and foremost prayer is that God would move in a person’s life and enable them to confess Christ as Lord, because only in Christ does a person stand a chance of defeating sin of any kind. Only when a person confesses Christ as Lord do they realize they are to submit to Him, only when a person confesses Christ as Savior do they realize they are freed from the slavery to sin, only when a person confesses Christ as Treasure do they value Him enough to let go of the things they formerly loved and pursue Him with abandon. Outside of this, any attempt to defeat sin will result in one of two things: 1) Overwhelming despair at a person’s inability to live morally, 2) Extreme pride in a person’s ability to modify their behavior a specific way. Neither of these are good options. Only in Christ do we find the strength, freedom, and treasure needed to defeat sin AND maintain humility.

      As far as Jesus not saying anything about homosexuality, He may not have outright said that homosexuality was a sin, but every time He talks about marriage it is ALWAYS between a man and a woman, particularly in Matthew 19 where He said that it is because God created men and women to function this way in marriage. Additionally, the entire Bible points to Jesus. The Old Testament points toward His first coming, and the New Testament reflects on His life on earth and how that impacts the humanity and the church, as well as pointing toward His second coming. The Old Testament calls homosexuality a sin in Leviticus and Deuteronomy as well as that being the breaking point for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the New Testament does in Romans as well. Additionally, and this is very important, Ephesians 5 tells us that marriage between a man and woman is actually a physical representation, or image, of Christ and the church. So, why would the rest of the Bible, while pointing toward Jesus as the Messiah and Emmanuel (God with us), call homosexuality a sin if it was something Jesus condoned? It wouldn’t, and in accordance with the rest of Scripture Jesus didn’t condone it.

      However, the Bible also condones condemning homosexuality the way that Fischer has done it. I’ve spoken enough on that, so I’ll leave it at that.

      Summary:
      1) Do I believe homosexuality is a sin? Yes, because the Bible is authoritative and it declares this to be the case.
      2) Is that going to change? As I fall under the authority of Scripture, no.
      3) Do I believe Fischer to be wrong in how he’s handling this? Yes, absolutely.
      4) What is the only hope any of us (homosexuals, Fischer, me, you, atheists, Christians, agnostics, anyone) have to defeat sin? Confessing Christ as Lord, Savior, Treasure, King, and God and relying solely on God’s power to help us defeat sin.

      One last thing, I am all for equality and freedom. First, you mentioned Martin Luther King Jr. as an example of someone to model in trying to end oppression of the LGBT community. King was a pastor, and everything he spoke to push racial equality was from a Christian worldview. Read the “I Have a Dream” speech, it is filled with Biblical concepts, Scripture, and acknowledging God as our Creator (as our constitution does) and part of this dream was that through racial equality that “the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together”. Yet, now, you want to question the very principles King leaned on to promote equality. If we question God as Creator, we have no basis for equality. If we do not desire the glory of God, then we have nothing to push us to pursue equality. Yet if we admit there is a God, that He created us, and that we live for His glory, then we must obey His commands. Not out of compulsion, but out of love for Him, because He loved us when we were His enemies.

      I’m not saying that Christians do everything right. Far from it. History is filled with Christians making many mistakes. History is filled with all people making many mistakes. Which leaves all of us desperately depending on the grace and mercy of God in Christ Jesus.

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